James Callis on Claude-Diana Dynamic, Episode 5 River Cliffhanger

[Warning: The below contains MAJOR spoilers for Slow Horses Season 4 Episode 5 “Grave Danger.”]

Slow horse in danger!

The penultimate episode of Slow horses Season 4 ends with River in the care of MI5 – specifically that of Emma Flyte (Ruth Bradley) – only for the mercenary Patrice (Tom Wozniczka), working for Frank Harkness (Hugo Weaving), to attack, leaving agents dead leaves behind, brings Emma down and takes River (Jack Lowden) with him. How will MI5, particularly First Desk Claude Whelan, react? TV Insider spoke to James Callis about this, his character’s dynamic with Diana Taverner (Kristin Scott Thomas), who is clearly much more comfortable taking charge, and more.

The fifth episode ends with River being filmed at the end of the episode. What can you say about how Claude deals with this in the finale?

James Callis: Claude always believes that he is doing the right thing, and you could say that the world is destroyed by people with good intentions. And to be fair, if you look at the picture you can see why he does what he does – at least I think I can. But I guess it’s like, you looked at Claude and he was gentle to a certain extent and respectful and all that stuff, and all of a sudden it’s like someone accelerated and went from zero to like 60 in three seconds. Oh damn, where did that come from? It’s like a flip.

There’s a lot of that, especially at the beginning of season four, where Claude is a bit of an ostrich. If I bury my head in the sand, it’s like maybe this will just go away, and then whatever, and this stuff won’t go away. Then it’s like: Okay, well, I tried the bouquet [way] or hopefully the thing will just work or just disappear and now I have to be a snake fighter today, I have to put this thing in my bag immediately. So [it’s] Learning at work.

Would you say he’s more comfortable in this job now than he was at the start of the season, or does he just want to feel more comfortable?

I’ve thought about it. To a certain extent, Claude got the job – not that he wasn’t looking for it, I mean his name must have been on a list, but he’s fascinating. It’s obviously not about what you obviously know, but about who you might know, and according to Ingrid, he’s considered the safer couple. So not only is Diana Taverner incredible at her job, she loves her job, she loves it.

Claude, I don’t think Claude does that. That’s what’s really interesting. It looks good, I have a paper here with MI5 written on it and that feels pretty good to send a letter. But when it comes to operational business, there is the saying: The head that wears the crown is heavy. And partly he’s a bit like an honorable boy scout or a schoolboy. It’s like if we follow the rules and dot the I’s and cross the T’s and everything will be like this… It’s like, no, no, it’s not that. This is not the case operationally. That’s not how it works. I guess Claude thinks about this all the time: we’re the good guys, we’re the good guys, and the good guys behave a certain way. Not necessarily.

The Claude-Diana dynamic is great. What did you enjoy most about it?

Everything. I just love being with Kristin. I guess I would try to make her laugh sometimes and the fact that she didn’t laugh made me laugh because she’ll never lose character and she’s just wonderful, wonderful. Occasionally I would look up and catch her because it was kind of a game of cat and mouse that she didn’t want to be a part of. She doesn’t want to be next to him, but she can’t exactly show him that she doesn’t like it that way. She has these little points where he’s not looking at her, where she’s rethinking her life choices, that she’s in the same room but has to get rid of it very quickly and somehow puts a smile on her face that she’s paying attention. Being with Kristin is like an acting masterclass. It’s just fantastic and also pretty high energy and friction, forwards and backwards. It was just so much fun to play the whole thing.

Will we see you in season 5?

There is a chance. There is a chance.

How much do you think Claude needs this control, and how much does he think he should just have it?

I think Claude is really entitled, which is also a problem. There’s this thing, well, of course I came to this place, it says on the door that I’m the man in charge, so I’m the man in charge. What do we do now? So it comes as a surprise to him that he has to prove that he knows what’s going on in this new arena. And there’s something really interesting about people. Some people are born to do this, others are not. There are certain things you can learn on the job, but if you’re not really suited for the job, it doesn’t matter what you do… Maybe you can apply the things you learn to another job, for which you might be more suitable for later.

There’s a point where it’s kind of like Claude isn’t leaving. There are certain things he will do. There are certain things he won’t do. Operationally, Diana Taverner will really do whatever it takes to get the job done. And if you want to be in charge of security, you have to have that kind of confidence so that you know, at least for yourself, that you’re doing the right thing. Claude definitely comes from committees and has worked with people in groups on strategies around computers and whatever. In fact, it’s a bit like Diana Taverner is Claude’s security blanket in this bizarre film – he wants to hold her, but she’s static.

Slow horsesSeason 4 finale, Wednesday, October 9, Apple TV+